Thomas LEGRAND

Thomas Legrand works as an environmental expert for public and private international organizations. He is currently the Senior Advisor to the Alliance for Conscious Food Systems within the United Nations Development Programme. Doctor in ecological economics, he lives in the South-West of France near Plum Village, the center of mindfulness practice of Zen master Thich Nhat Hanh. He is the author of "Politics of Being. Wisdom and Science for a New Development Paradigm" ( https://politicsofbeing.com/ ) recently published in English with a preface by Matthieu Ricard.

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politicsofbeing.com • 1 min read

This space is an invitation to co-create the new development paradigm we need: one that is focused on “being” instead of “having”.

Hello Mr Legrand. Thank you for having accepted our invitation for an interview during which we will discuss the theme of ecology. We will address very current topics such as climate change, deforestation, the law of nature among others. So many themes that are dear to you and that have led to deep reflection for years. You have moreover brought them together in a book recently published in English, “ The Politics of Being. Wisdom and Science for a New Paradigm of Development ”.

• My first question will be to ask you what definition you give to the word “ecology” and the place it occupies in your daily life?

For me, ecology is the way of living in harmony with all living beings. Today is a beautiful spring day and I feel grateful to share this land with all these flowers! Ecology is for me to feel part of this whole to which I belong, which is part of me, it is an apprenticeship of life in relation, of wisdom. This is also the subject of my work on the conservation of tropical forests and climate change in particular.

• The concepts of ecology and environmental protection are very often unanimous within the public sphere and the political class as a whole. This is also true in much of the world. However, it is easy to notice the difference, not to say the chasm, which still remains between words and actions, how do you explain that? Is it a lack of information? of education?

I think that our development paradigm based on economic growth is fundamentally opposed to the preservation of the natural balances of our planet and that its necessary questioning requires a very profound transformation of our societies and the individuals who compose it. This transformation comes up against not only power structures linked to this economic model but also the values and mental models that underpin our societies, particularly in the West, such as materialism, individualism, reductionism or anthropocentrism. Only a profound cultural evolution can enable us to respond to ecological challenges.

• On a political level, do you think it is difficult to legislate when it comes to ecology, whether in France or abroad? The campaign is in full swing in France and it is clear that the ideological debate is very far from the ecological field. Do you have an explanation for this?

It is possible to pass ambitious climate laws but this of course depends on our political institutions. We saw it with the citizens' convention for the climate. Citizens are selected by lot to ask them to propose responses to the climate crisis, and these, who have not been selected in relation to a particular ecological sensitivity, study the question with the support of experts and propose a roadmap whose ambition is incomparable to what no government has been able to propose! this clearly shows that we have a democratic problem, that the public debate is not up to par and this is linked to the way in which our political system, which can be described as an “antagonistic” or “competitive” democracy, works. In my book, I propose concrete reforms to our political institutions that would allow us to dramatically improve political deliberation and decision-making.

• Some interesting measures have been taken, such as the banning of plastic in supermarket packaging (which is not obvious, by the way), but besides that, we continue to decimate our forests to sell the most beautiful trees to China, which we will then resell them in the form of furniture or parquet slats. One could cite many examples like this in many fields. Do we not walk a little on the head?

Indeed, our economic system has for only logic that of profit. It is interesting to note that in the case that you mention on forest management, it is China which acts as a "developed" country, one might say, in a long-term logic, and France which sacrifices its capital natural. It should make you think.

• Scientific data showing that the earth's climate is becoming more and more numerous. According to you, what should be done to fight against the dangers that threaten humanity?

What we need is an evolution of our notion of progress, and a profound reorientation of our societies from "having" or economic growth towards "being" and personal fulfilment, which should be our real goal. It is a matter of redefining the priorities and, thereby, the meaning of our lives, both individually and collectively.

• You call for a collective awareness in which “being” takes precedence over “having”. Can you explain to us what you mean by that? Do our consumer societies push us so much to “have” that we have lost the very meaning of life?

Our consumer societies feed on our disconnection, whether as consumers but also often as workers, investors or citizens. It is because we are disconnected from ourselves that we come to ignore our real needs which are largely relational – relationship to self, to others and to nature – to prioritize material comfort, social recognition, and everything that our manipulated egos desire but cannot make us fully happy. Many scientific studies support this analysis and have clearly shown, for example, how much the consumerist culture harms our well-being (see the work of American psychologist Tim Kasser).

• If I follow your reasoning, each of us has the solution to the problem through our lifestyle and consumption choices?

We all have part of the solution. And in many cases, in our economically rich societies, we could very often live in a more sustainable way while being happier. Up to a point… because at the same time, it's not always easy to navigate against the tide and our governments should do much more to allow us to live in a way that is compatible with maintaining planetary balances.

• In view of the impressive figures of economic recoveries in the industrialized countries, don't you have the impression that what you are calling for is very largely utopian? I play the devil's advocate and push my questioning further. Your humanism, certainly shared by many, is it not quite simply swept away by a despairing and incessant worldwide frenzy of consumption? A regular wave that has nothing to do with deforestation, warming temperatures or ocean pollution.

I don't think the survival of humanity, because that's what's at stake, should be seen as a utopia. Willingly or by force, we will have to make this ecological transition. We will have no choice if we want to continue to live on this earth. We cannot continue to consume and destroy our ecosystems in this way and ignore the consequences. How much time and pain that will take remains to be seen. But it is clear that we are very quickly approaching our limits.

• Moreover, economy and ecology are – they incompatible according to you? In other words, do you think it is possible to reconcile economic growth and environmental protection?

Absolutely. Etymologically, the economy is the management of the house, the rational management of our resources, including of course our natural resources. So there can be no sustainable economic growth without environmental protection. But I don't think it's adequate to make economic growth an objective in itself, it would rather be a way to live well. The objective is that our material and interior needs are satisfied, and a good part of the goods and services which we produce do not answer these needs well. The economy tends to follow its own logic: that of profit, but in many cases this is done to the detriment of our well-being. This is often the case with new technologies. The very concept of economic growth contains very diverse realities and in the extreme, the destruction of the environment can in a certain way nourish economic growth. When a hurricane that has been made more powerful by climate change destroys a city, its reconstruction will be counted as an increase in production.

• Your last book is called “The Politics of Being”. Can you explain to our readers what motivated you to write this book?

This vision of a profound cultural evolution of a spiritual nature in progress as the response to the crisis of civilization that we are facing imposed itself on me as the relevant reading grid for understanding the world today. Unlike many other analysis grids which quickly become obsolete, I notice that its relevance is increasingly recognized. This understanding seems so clear to me that I wanted to be able to share it in a way that was accessible but also solid from the point of view of argument. I also wanted to propose a general framework for this reflection which is often approached in a partial way. We talk about the need for systemic thinking, to harmonize with the way living things work, happiness, empathy, a culture of peace, mindfulness, but we rarely understand that all this is linked to an evolution of consciences, to a development of "being" on which our societies should concentrate more. Finally, I wanted to show that there were plenty of examples of public policies and systems in place in many sectors that could constitute this policy of being, that it can be put in place today, and could completely change our societies for the better in a few decades.

• Choosing to take an ecological "path", accepting all the constraints and life changes, is this the beginning of a spiritual quest for you? I am thinking in particular of another area: veganism. People who choose this way of life are driven by a very strong awareness, an intense spiritual maturity that pushes them to place the living above everything else. Could we draw a parallel with ecology?

Indeed, veganism shows us how a spiritual approach, that of respect for all living beings, can contribute significantly to the fight against climate change. Without going as far as veganism, it is interesting to note that eating less meat and dairy products, fewer processed products would be good for both our health and well-being and that of the planet. Why don't we? It is a problem of conscience. In many cases, stress and our mental health affects the way we eat, and mindfulness meditation, for example, has been shown to improve our eating habits.

• What if humans were simply not spiritually ready for ecology?

Human beings have lived in relative harmony with their environment for millennia. The problem is that our power over the world has grown tremendously over the past few centuries without a corresponding evolution in our wisdom or consciousness. Our well-being and future depend fundamentally on ecology, but we are still too little aware of it. Individuals are largely shaped by the society in which they live and by a whole economic system, whose ramifications are also political and cultural, which has organized itself to hide this reality. By organizing our societies in such a way as to allow everyone to cultivate the best of themselves, to become fully themselves, we would quickly realize how important ecology is and is not the enemy but the way of the well-being.

• Is it ultimately not for this reason that ecology, just like veganism, remain "niches" in which evolve at best from amusing "hyppies" of modern times to at worst extremist eccentrics; Anyway, nothing too serious. As evidenced by polls and election results.

I do not believe that ecology is not taken seriously. The problem is that it does not find its place in the development model which is ours. It is therefore an alternative model that must be proposed which would reconcile personal fulfillment and ecology.

I have come to the end of our interview Mr. Legrand. Would you like something to add?

Yes. Thank you for your work and share the website https://politicsofbeing.com/ and the video trailer in french of my book, which Matthieu Ricard describes in his preface as " a profound, enlightened, extensively documented, sensitive and necessary essay, offering a precious roadmap for traveling together towards a better world".